Receive linked this yesterday http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd-update-2.html it looks pretty cool. alot cooler (and possibly more sane) than upstart. So, I've taken it upon myself to set up a VM rip upstart out and install systemd. Writing this mail while my apt-get upgrade finishes. 145kB/s ftl :( So, how insane would people think I am for, if this works, proposing that we ditch upstart? Again, it's only an if, an if I haven't given much thought to, but would be nice to get some opinions on. Austin
On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 01:34, Austin Halpin <haus@redbrick.dcu.ie> wrote:
alot cooler (and possibly more sane) than upstart.
How so?
So, I've taken it upon myself to set up a VM rip upstart out and install systemd.
I'm not saying you shouldn't try, but this is going to be a pretty big task. And it's going to be something that you'll have to do with each ubuntu release, not to mention keeping tracks of any changes to the upstart scripts for whatever services we have and porting them back to the new system.
So, how insane would people think I am for, if this works, proposing that we ditch upstart?
I think very. In a test VM, sure. Across all of Redbrick's servers? Nuts. However, that's only because I don't understand your reasoning, so here are some questions off the top of my head: - What does it do that upstart doesn't? - What advantages does it have over upstart? - What problems with upstart does this fix? I may have more, will think some. --E
Mostly what Eoghan said, but with a couple of additions.
So, how insane would people think I am for, if this works, proposing that we ditch upstart?
I think very. In a test VM, sure. Across all of Redbrick's servers? Nuts.
Insane. Completley, batshit, throw that man in a mental institution insane. We might as well just install linux from scratch on our machines. Think about it - it's not even production ready in the opinion of _the 2 distros that came up with it_. The main reasons against upstart seem to be centred around three arguments: * "Wahhh, there's not enough shell scripts for me to hack up anymore" * Its dependency graph seems to be a mess. This is an issue of evolution more than a critical fault with upstart, and I'll bet you a small sum of money that systemd will come with similar head wrecking-isms. * Documentation sucks and it could do with a couple more stanzas for corner cases. Replacing init is getting very, very far into "building a Redbrick Linux" territory. And not just an Ubuntu reskin, a whole separate descendent of Debian. Take a look at the bugs list on Launchpad if you want something to scare you away from doing that :) Having said that, systemd does sound fun to play with and like it has excellent potential in Fedora/OpenSuSE land. I look forward to tinkering with it just as much as you seem to. Just, not on production redbrick machines. -Andrew
On Sat, Dec 04, 2010 at 01:30:49PM +0000, Andrew Martin wrote:
Mostly what Eoghan said, but with a couple of additions.
So, how insane would people think I am for, if this works, proposing that we ditch upstart?
I think very. In a test VM, sure. Across all of Redbrick's servers? Nuts.
Insane. Completley, batshit, throw that man in a mental institution insane. We might as well just install linux from scratch on our machines.
Think about it - it's not even production ready in the opinion of _the 2 distros that came up with it_.
The main reasons against upstart seem to be centred around three arguments:
* "Wahhh, there's not enough shell scripts for me to hack up anymore" * Its dependency graph seems to be a mess. This is an issue of evolution more than a critical fault with upstart, and I'll bet you a small sum of money that systemd will come with similar head wrecking-isms. * Documentation sucks and it could do with a couple more stanzas for corner cases.
Replacing init is getting very, very far into "building a Redbrick Linux" territory. And not just an Ubuntu reskin, a whole separate descendent of Debian. Take a look at the bugs list on Launchpad if you want something to scare you away from doing that :)
Having said that, systemd does sound fun to play with and like it has excellent potential in Fedora/OpenSuSE land. I look forward to tinkering with it just as much as you seem to. Just, not on production redbrick machines.
I kind of figured this would be the sort of reaction I'd get. I hadn't put any real thought into it whatsoever, it was more a kind of "I wonder how that'd work out..." then I mailed the list for some opinions. I kind of hit a wall doing stuff with it last night, because I couldn't figure out how to get a bootloader prompt on the VM, so couldn't really tell init to use systemd instead of upstart. I also had to install a newer version of libudev0 that doesn't seem to have been rolled out by ubuntu yet either. But, it's been fun, and I've learned a little bit from it. And I'm probably going to beat the thing into getting init to use systemd, just to see how horrible it breaks things. Who knows, I might even learn a little more along the way.
On Sat, Dec 04, 2010 at 02:12:51PM +0000, Austin Halpin wrote:
I kind of figured this would be the sort of reaction I'd get. I hadn't put any real thought into it whatsoever, it was more a kind of "I wonder how that'd work out..." then I mailed the list for some opinions.
I figured that from the timestamp on the email :D
On Sat, Dec 04, 2010 at 02:12:51PM +0000, Austin Halpin wrote:
On Sat, Dec 04, 2010 at 01:30:49PM +0000, Andrew Martin wrote:
Mostly what Eoghan said, but with a couple of additions.
So, how insane would people think I am for, if this works, proposing that we ditch upstart?
I think very. In a test VM, sure. Across all of Redbrick's servers? Nuts.
Insane. Completley, batshit, throw that man in a mental institution insane. We might as well just install linux from scratch on our machines.
Yep, totally agree. Systemd is a pretty cool guy, and i totally endorse playing with it, but I don't see it being stable enough for us to deploy it any time soon. The main problem with upstart is the halfarsed job ubuntu have done, most of the things we're running still don't ship with upstart configs, changing the init won't really help with that :( Ubuntu will move to systemd, they've spent so long pissing about with upstart that I expect it won't happen before 12.04.
But, it's been fun, and I've learned a little bit from it. And I'm probably going to beat the thing into getting init to use systemd, just to see how horrible it breaks things.
Who knows, I might even learn a little more along the way.
\o/ -- Andrew Harford "Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject, so you know you are getting the best possible information." -- Micheal Scott
participants (4)
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Andrew Harford -
Andrew Martin -
Austin Halpin -
Eoghan Gaffney